Actions speak louder than words?
“Look, if I take out the garbage, THAT is tantamount to saying ‘I care for you’.”
He said that!
No really… he actually said that!
Okay, okay — we were having a conversation about the differences between men and women and I brought up the whole “BOTH sexes expect the other to be a mind reader. Girls want guys to know what we want and guys expect girls to know how they feel.”
“Why can’t guys just say ‘I care for you.’?” I asked him.
“We DO say it. We say it every time we take out the garbage. We say it ever time we put the toilet seat down. Every time we do something outside of our ‘normal’ routine that is something you ladies want/like, we are saying we care for you.”: was his response.
“Ummmmmm…..but why can’t you SAY it? You know… speak the words???”
There was no answer forthcoming.
(this is not word for word but it’s pretty darn close!)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now let me be perfectly clear — We were NOT discussing *us*.
We were discussing “genders” as a whole.
Because, he *HAS* told me that he really likes me.
Because, I *HAVE* told him that I really like him.
Because he and I communicate very well, all things considered. (meaning — he’s a guy and I’m a girl and that pretty much means we speak completely different languages! ha.ha..ha..)
Actually, I recently had the “I need more non-sexual affection” conversation with him.
(yes…before I posted that blog topic, which is why I was so amused by the quote!)
Last night was our first time together since that conversation and there was a *marked* increase in hand holding, touching, kissing, caressing, etc…on his part.
Nice! 
Which, of course, brought up the topic of “Why do women have to ask for more non-sexual affection”?
I *LOVE* talking to him — can you tell?
His take on the subject??
Simple — women of a certain age group (let’s say under 30) have trained men that touching them in public is unaccepatable.
huh???
yeah…that’s what I said.
The expressions he related to me were “Stop pawing me”, “Don’t hang on me like I’m your property”, “Stop being so clingy”, “Stop smothering me”, etc…etc..
And then.. when women hit 30, it’s like a switch flips and suddenly they WANT that kind of attention and complain when they don’t get it.
But what has happened, is that the MEN have been trained NOT to give this kind of affection by now so they don’t try/give it anymore.
Interesting…..very interesting…..
I KNOW this is a very broad based statement, but I’m curious — what do YOU think????
**note** he says that most of the complaints that women have about men are the direct by-product of the almost Pavlovian type “experiences” men have received at the hands of women. See what I mean?? The way his mind works is absolutely FASCINATING! ha..ha.ha…!
Don’t worry though… he has learned and appreciates that I don’t play games, I speak my mind, and I communciate fairly well in “man-speak”. I’m pretty sure these are some of the reasons he “really likes me”. 
I think part of this is the “men fall in love with their eyes” and “women fall in love with their ears” thing. Men show their affection by doing stuff, not saying stuff. Women are talkers. Of course this is old news and yet we still have trouble “getting” each other.
As for the affection thing… are these men dating women who are not really into them? Because I have NEVER told a guy to “stop pawing me” unless it was some drunk guy at a frat party that I met five seconds ago. A boyfriend? I was (and still am) all about the hand-holding and other affection. Who are these women?!
***I KNOW!! I mean, I admit that there are times when I may not be as affectionate and I may not want to be touched, but those are for certain reasons and NOT a general rule! And everyone is like that..guys and girls!
But he was very specific in that with these women it was ALL THE TIME. I’m with you Finn… WHO ARE THESE WOMEN??
(and yes… I got him to admit that he willingly subjected himself to this behavior because he stayed in the relationships in the first place!)
I like Ranger more and more as I see how he presents his experiences and feelings. A lot of it is how we “learn” those behaviors in our lives. From growing up, to what “society” as a whole tells us in television, movies and writings… to what we learn in our relationships that we have in our lives. It can change, we are not unteachable. But we do get conditioned. On the “stop pawing” thing… one relationship we were sitting on the living room floor, cheese crackers and wine… unclothed, talking with the television on in the background. In my male ignorance, I touched the breast(touched, not pawed, starting the foreplay thing that was discussed)… she knocked my hand away and yelled (not exaggerating here) “what do you think you are doing? I didn’t say I wanted to do anything!”… from that point on, I quit reaching. THEN she complained that I never initiated anything. True story… however, I don’t doubt she could point out my many mistakes as well…
think a new dog would be easier to work with though… lol
***ummm…Okay Michael, I gotta say — unless you are normally a nudist – then the very fact that you were having a romantic little picnic in the living room (wine/cheese/crackers/naked = romantic) indicates (to me at least) that touching AND MORE was going to occur at some point. So her response… well, it pretty much baffles me.
Granted, I wasn’t there. There could have been underlying things that I’m not aware of (duh!) but the simple fact that she was participating in this encounter and then slapped you away and yelled at you… Dude.. that’s just wrong! I’m sorry for you that it went down that way.
Now, on the other hand (hee..hee… not the pawing hand!), just because she slapped you away that ONE TIME.. why would you take that as a reason to quit reaching forever? That seems a bit drastic, don’t you think? Training/conditioning typically takes more than just one bad encounter. True??
ACK! NOT that I am suggesting that WOMEN are not more important than a new dog! Or that there is ANY similarity!
Crap.. where is the recall button once you send an email….
***ha..ha..ha.. you know.. I COULD edit your comments to get rid of all this awkward, potentionally severe backlash worthy commenting, but I think I’ll sit back and see what happens.
Actually, conditioning normally occurs with frequent pairings of the conditioned stimulus with the unconditioned stimulus, but the timing and intensity of the conditioning could certainly cause a conditioned response with just one pairing. However, there we some similar circumstances that reinforced the conditioning.
As to you leaving the comment there… it’s kinda like fighting Ulric… if you leave an opening.. you are gonna get smacked… just gotta suck it up… lol
***Ahhh…but there WERE “similar circumstances” so that makes better sense!
As for the smacking — I have it on very good authority that you kinda like that stuff anyway. heh..heh..
Omg.
I have had this same conversation with a friend of mine (and blogged about it), but I totally took the guy’s side. She was about to throw away a great guy and a great relationship because he wasn’t the talky talky type.
Stupid, just stupid.
Why do women insist there’s only one way to say “I care” and that’s to verbalize it? Why is it that SHOWING someone you care, with actions, is somehow less meaningful than words that are easily spoken and just as easily forgotten?
Why is OUR way the right way and THEIR way is the wrong way?
Why can’t women hear it when it’s not being shouted?
No, I’m completely on the guys side.
Don’t tell me. Words mean shit.
Show me.
I feel sorry for men. Really. Women are impossible to please nutjobs.
***I don’t think we can completely blame one gender or the other. I think that men AND women need to work on meeting in the middle.
Women need to learn to accept that men DO THINGS out of caring.
Men need to learn to SAY THE WORDS every once in a while.
The big thing, to me at least, is that we stop treating each other as a GENDER and start treating each other as individuals. Just because one person didn’t like being on top during sex, doesn’t mean that every person AFTER them is going to be the same way.
We are all different, we just have a *few* commanalities.
And THAT is what I’ve been trying to stress with my conversations with him.
Of course, it helps that he keeps realizing that I’m *not* the “typical female”. hee..hee…
APPLUADS SWF29
You know, I think women need to stop trying to turn men into women. (Note: That’s not what I think *you’re* doing.)
And that A LOT of women would be a lot better off if they acted more like men.
But, that’s just me.
***are you sure you aren’t channeling Ranger? I SWEAR he said the exact same thing last night! Then went on to elaborate…. had me laughing so hard I nearly peed myself.
And no, I don’t think you are accusing me of that. Besides, Ranger is pretty damn secure in his manliess. He has to be or he wouldn’t survive all the conversations that I instigate. hee..hee…
Oh girl!! I get what you are saying. I have been relationships with women and men and the outcome is the same. I speak “man” language very well and don’t play games, am direct, honest but also affectionate, giving and loving. And it still has not produced that perfect connection! WTF. Love that he equate taking the trash…I would so love for somebody to take my trash out!
****Well, I’m hoping that at age 37, I’ve gotten a little bit better at weeding through the losers in the dating world. I mean, if I haven’t learned ANYTHING by now, I’d be going out with <a href=”“>Drummer Boy right now, instead of Ranger.
I will admit though, there is a part of me that says “taking out the garbage DOESN’T mean you care” because gosh darn it… I take out the garbage ALL the time, simply because it needs to go out. Yeah.. there’s that whole “household chores” issue.. ya know? But I’m not going there now because, well.. because I live alone. ha..haha.. I take out my own trash!
Different people send and receive love differently. With some its all about touching. With other its words spoken, spoken frequently and with sincerity. Yet others still it is actions *i.e.* taking out the garbage.
The real key to knowing how to love the one your with….
knowing which one of these is his or her love language.
Not the language you feel love in, but language you must speak in order for your partner to hear it.
The real key, Michael, is did you communicate your language in the living room, or did you speak hers?
***Hi Sunshine.. welcome to the Kitty Korral.
Ah yes, the “Love Language” conversation. I’ve looked through that and while I understand the concept, but it seems like I fall equally under ALL 5 catagories. So it’s not a matter of “one” specific love language.
No matter what though — I hold to the simple fact that open, honest communciation is KEY.
Now.. answer Sunshines question Michael.. hee..hee…
I don’t appreciate men pawing all over me in public. It’s inappropriate and makes the people in the same vicinity uncomfortable.
***Sure Tabbie, I won’t argue with that. But the action that he gave as an expample were nowhere NEAR the (my) definition of “pawing”. It was simply a caress that ran from shoulder, down my spine and stopped at the small of my back. THIS is what he says was accused of as “pawing” and I would completely disagree with that assesment.
There is a major difference between pawing (which, to me, indicates a lack of respect for the woman in the first place) and non-sexual affection.
I agree with Tabbie. PDA makes me uncomfortable but when I was younger, I was all about it.
Which is funny because as I was having my lunch cigarette, I was watching this couple hugging and being playful (i’m assuming they went to lunch and didnt want to leave each other just yet. They stood holding each other loosely for a few minutes. He went to walk away and she spun him around and he lifted her up and kissed her, etc.) and it was actually the cutest thing I’ve ever seen. And that’s exactly what I want, but with the right person.
So I guess what I’m saying is I will only participate in PDA with the right person.
***Heck, your description had ME going “awwwww…”
Well.. time to find that right person then, because affection is great!
I heart the PDA now. The cuteness just makes me want to die (in a good way).
***I’ve ALWAYS liked PDA. I mean…not in the “geez get a room” kind of affection, but hand holding, some kissing (church tongue! ha..ha…), hugging, etc…. it just keeps “that loving feeling” strong, you know?
“Verbal ability is a highly overrated thing in a guy, and it’s our pathetic need for it that gets us into so much trouble.” Sleepless in Seattle
And for what its worth, Micheal if you were naked in the LR, and she had a fit because you touched her, she had a problem. Thats a mixed signal for sure.
***Ummm….WHO said that in the movie, Trixie? Because I’m pretty sure it was said in a fit of pique by one of the characters..ha.ha.ha… !
And yeah… I’m totally on board with the whole mixed signal thing. Ahhh.. time for us to give Michael “Love counseling”.
Pull up a couch….
the boyfriend and i were talking about pda today! he put his arm around me and I put my shoulder on his shoulder. I like that. he was talking like I was gonna climb in the chair on top of him or something…I said remember when we were first together and you would come grocery shopping with me and kiss me and grab my ass? let’s go back to that.
***wait?? you were affectionate and he immediately thought YOU wanted sex? hee..hee… talk about a role reversal. That’s too cute!
incidentally, when we talk about something, he really tries to make it right. I value that.
***that’s awesome! and also explains why you guys are buying stuff together! heh.heh… commitment!
I don’t know why men are like that, but it drives me nuts. I haven’t heard that excuse before about the women in their twenties though.
I know men are “do-ers” and for some reason, they don’t get the fact that we need to HEAR it. I don’t translate “doing stuff” into “I love you”.
So why can’t they just fake it and tell us all the time?
***But would you really want him to “fake” it?? Wouldn’t you rather have a sincere gesture that you know means that they care than to have them fake it by saying it??
I’m under 30 and I wish that Scott would touch me more when we are out in public. I LOVE when he rubs my back and holds my hand in public.
But he hardly ever does it, or I have to ask for it. Apparently I haven’t trained him well enough yet
***ahhh..but have you talked to him about it? Not just asked, but sat down and talked? Let’s face it babe.. you admit that communication is not your strong point with Scott, so maybe you should put that on the “list of things to be discussed”? xoxoxxo
In almost every aspect of your description I agree with Ranger… there are so many Pavlovian things that guys do with women it isn’t even funny. Want us to wear a color more often, tell us you like how that color compliments our eyes (or whatever). Women tend to think of these positive reinforcements but the negative ones are actually much more long-lasting. All a woman has to do is tell a guy once that they are uncomfortable with PDA and that sticks with a guy pretty much for life…
Hell, it has for me… so much so that even after walking around Amsterdam with DutchBitch for an hour, and after a lot of beautiful moments together privately, I STILL didn’t know if it would be ok to hold hands until she took mine…
***awwww…you and DB were holding hands? that is SO sweet!!! Don’t worry Rob, I took the initiative to hold Rangers hand the first time too. Now, he’s more likely to hold my hand first. So if DB did it, that means it’s okay for you to do it!
*soap box*
All women are different, all men are different. Yes some stereo types apply to almost all of us in one situation or the other. if we treat individual women (or men) as the ’stereo typical’ version, then we’ve already lost. Get to know the individual, learn what is different about them, care about the things that make them a special, unique individual (the small things) and your more than half way there. – *key* learn about your partner, it has to go both ways, you learn about them, they learn about you.
If I take out the garbage that is tantamount to saying “I care for you”. is crap taking out the garbage says – the garbage was full and/or it stunk so I took it out. anything else is a load of crap.
As far as everything else goes (the ‘learned behaviour that we’ve been trained to from past relationships) – its baggage we all have it. the only way to get past it is to communicate with the other person and trust them. If you can’t do that, again it is likely because of some mental or emotional baggage the individual has. and its only solution is time, communication and trust – That is the theory, putting all of it into practice is the problem.
Hugs
Ulrich
***But as YOU just said — “each person needs to be treated as an individual” and just because YOU don’t equate taking out the garbage as a way of saying “I care for you” doesn’t mean other men don’t equate it that way.
If he tells me that’s how he sees it, should I call him a liar or accuse him of being emotionally stingy? OR should I listen to what he says and see what he does and appreciate the sentiment behind his actions?
Until someone proves themselves to be false, shouldn’t we give them the benefit of the doubt? Otherwise, we remain jaded and cynical no matter what and that certainly isn’t healthy.
Nah, I’mma disagree with the general concensus here (shocking, huh?).
Guys are dumb. It’s the whole blood pressure thing…one end of the spine or the other. I’ll agree that it generally takes one strong tongue lashing to hurt our ever so precious pride forever but it’s usually a misunderstanding. She’s having a crappy day and the only time he ever shows affection is when he wants sex. And then he’s surprised that when he shows affection that she assumes he wants sex.
The training goes both ways. I’m not saying it’s solely his fault, but it’s not solely her’s either.
If guys (generally speaking) didn’t have their heads up their own asses so much and could take a verbal beating to mean what it often means (I want to communicate and I want you to really listen to me but this is the only way you listen so this is how I will communicate BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT YOU) instead of what they *think* it means they’d probably be better off.
That being said, she really should have gone back and explained what it was that bothered her and why it bothered her so he could avoid it in the future.
But, then again, that would mean that both partners would have to learn the difference in what they send and what the other person receives as far as communicative styles.
***But..”D”.. what does this have to do with taking out the garbage equating to saying “I care for you”?
So, the more and more I got to think about this, I figured out how to say what I wanted with *shocker* an analogy.
If you give a dog a dog dish, that dog will generally get protective of the food in that dog dish (assuming you didn’t train the dog not to).
Now, if you later start to mess with the dog while they are eating out of said dog dish, they will raise their hackles. If you push them far enough, they may snap at you. But if, instead, you scold the dog when they growl at you (in this circumstance) you are training the dog not to raise their hackles. You are training the dog to skip the raising of the hackles and just snap at you. That’s not what you want the dog to learn, but that’s what the dog learns from your teaching. Not always, of course, this is just a generalization.
This isn’t the dogs fault for ‘learning wrong’. It’s not (directly) the owner’s fault.
Personally, I would put the blame indirectly on the owner for not learning how to teach the dog correctly.
I’m not saying it’s universally the guys or girls fault…I’m saying that placing blame in one side or the other is usually stupid. If both parties are willing to learn, problems can often be avoided.
I will say, however, that (in my experience) women are a whole hell of a lot more willing to learn about communication then guys.
***I agree with the last sentence at least.
I *DO* think that women are more willing and it’s VERY frustrating, to us, that guys aren’t. Why should we be putting forth the majority of effort to make the relationship work better?
Oh, about the garbage…sorry…
It means different things to different people. My knight, for instance, would do it because it needs to be done. He’s that kind of person. He is very methodical and wants to keep things in the state that he wants them in.
I, on the other hand, am lazy. I don’t like housework (trying to change that). I don’t like to do dishes, or take out the trash, or generally do much that I don’t have to.
If I do them, it’s because I care. Just like you set the volume to a number that doesn’t drive me nuts.
But it’s different for different people.
**Dude.. you are gonna have to work on that whole “cleanliness” thing… trust me. THIS is a big deal for women. ;P
When my husband and I started dating, he used to smack my ass and then say, Nice ass. At the time I was so horrified and would kind of shrink away from it. Over time I realized how much I liked that because I knew without a doubt he found me sexy just from smacking my ass.
***Yep, that’s one of those little things. And I’m guessing..had you snarled or snapped at him to stop, he probably would have and then you would have missed it.
Nope house hold chores are not acts of caring – Sorry Cinn, I’m not budging on this one. Household chores are part of what you take on by being in a relationship and co-habitating (even part time) with someone, its simple common courtesy. the use of them as ‘an act of caring or affection’ is a cop out so that people don’t have to get out of their comfort zone and actually COMMUNICATE their feelings to another human being.communicate.
The problem is SOME men have got women so bumfuddled about communication that they are so starved for some kind of sign, any kind of sign that the guy ‘really cares’ that ‘ He likes me he really, really likes me’ they will actually ACCEPT *taking out the trash* or “helping with the dishes” as acts of caring. when in reality they are just common courtesy and good manners to anyone brought up right.
As ‘acts of affection/caring’ they’re horse hockey.
Really how desperate are you when you think
‘Wow he took out the garbage and helped with the dishes, he must really love me’ – replay that thought over and over in your head, apply your (obviously) missing self esteem and let me know what you come up with.
Ladies, don’t sell yourselves short. you deserve more than that.
***hmmm….I’m gonna leave this one alone.